Rob Munday
Like a lot of the filmmaking industry, Short of the Week has always been a director-focused platform. It’s the directors who get the main credit on our site and who are the people we usually quote in our articles. However, we’re also well aware of all the other talented people whose work goes into bringing a short film to screen, so we thought it was about time we spread the focus of our spotlight a little wider.
With that in mind, this new interview series is looking to introduce some of those individuals to our audience and provide insight into the important role they play in the creation of a short film. From producers to editors, cinematographers to sound designers, it’s time to learn more about what they do, by speaking to those who do it best.
For the first interview in this monthly series, we talk to Delaval Film producer Loran Dunn as she unravels the complexities of her role and discusses how we can get independent producers the attention they so rightly deserve.
Introducing Loran Dunn
Read Loran’s full bio on her production company’s, Delaval Film, website
Loran’s shorts have played across the world at festivals including Sundance, London Film Festival, and the UK House of Parliament, and she won Best Producer at BAFTA accredited Underwire Film Festival.
She has been featured on S/W four times with The Pig Child, Marina and Adrienne, Lambing Season & Salvation Has No Name.
Once again, thank you so much for joining us Loran. I’ve been wanting to get you on the site for some time to talk about the work you do. For those outside the industry, there always seem to be a bit of “mystery” surrounding exactly what a producer does. So to try and clear things up, can you talk about your role and why it’s so important in filmmaking?
There’s so much to say and I think this is one of the reasons why producers are so misunderstood. The role really varies depending on what kind of project you’re working on and like directors, producers have different styles and different strengths. So I can understand why it’d be really hard to get a grip on what they actually do. Something I talk about a lot with my producing students, at the School of Art in Manchester, is the difference between a producer on a feature and a short, because essentially a producer is doing everything on a short film.
“You’ve got to have that ability to be able to tell who is going to be a talented voice in cinema”
There are some things that don’t change though. A producer is a kind of scout of talent, looking for people that they think are really interesting writers/directors. You’re the developer of that talent and you’re the person who’s been able to spot a glimmer of something in somebody and then have the ability to polish that up. You’ve got to have that ability to be able to tell who is going to be a talented voice in cinema and know how to get the best out of their own individual style of writing and directing. Also, you have to know how to then bring in a whole team that’s best suited for that project, and know how to bring out the best in it. On top of that, you’ve obviously got to be managing the legal and business side of it as well and then there are locations, casting, unit management and so many other things.
A good producer needs to know where their strength lies. Personally, I’m very good with people, so locations have always been really easy for me, because I’m confident that I can communicate with the owner and secure it. Another producer might know their strengths are more in the financial side.
That’s a lot! I knew from following your work and speaking to you in the past how much you put into a project, but hearing it listed out like that, again, it’s easy to see why the producer role doesn’t get the credit it deserves. It’s interesting to hear you talk about the role as a “developer of talent” and that’s something we think about a lot on S/W. So what do you look for in the filmmakers, and projects, you choose to work with? What draws you to a filmmaker and their film?
That’s a really good question and it’s hard to answer because when you know, you know. But to be a little bit more specific, I’m looking for work that feels a little bit different. Most of the projects I pick, and the people I tend to work with, are doing stuff that feels a little bit “on the edge”. It’s not classic straight lace drama or simple narratives, I’m looking for the films that make people go: “what the hell happened there”. A great film should be a real ride and I kind of want to create those experiences.
When I’m talking to somebody about their ideas, I want to feel that spark of something a little bit different in form or content. They should have something to say, but in a really smart and genuine way. Also, I want to make something that’s going to have an impact.
Loran Dunn (R) on the set of Lucy Campbell’s short film The Pig Child.
Again, it feels like there are lots of similarities here in what we look for in a S/W pick. I recently read an article you put out on the British cinematographer and one of the things that really struck me from that piece was when you talked about teaching your students and how they struggled when they were asked to name a producer they “know and like”. If they’re already on this path and hoping to take work in the industry, but have difficulties naming role models, there’s obviously a problem here. So what can we do to fix that problem? How can we make sure producers aren’t misunderstood anymore and what can we do to support them?
That’s another really good question and again I think it’s not a straightforward answer, because all producers are different. There are some who go into this industry from a purely business motivated point of view and the decisions they make are purely commercial. But I think for the vast majority of producers, who are working in independent film, they are people that see film as an art form and are artists in their own right. They have a real creative investment in the projects that they are involved in.
You have to give so much of yourself to make these projects happen. Nobody is really involved in the indie film business to make money, they’re doing it because they really, really believe in the work, and that there is a kind of a purpose and a place for it.
To better support these producers, I think it’s just about that recognition. Acknowledging that in this particular field, the independent film world, producers are just as creatively motivated and integral to the project as the writer and the director.
“If we really want to nurture writers and directors from diverse backgrounds, we have to be nurturing those producers as well”
And then in terms of tangible things, from those who have the power to do so, actual hard cash is really, really important. As I talked about in that article, what worries me is that with that misunderstanding of producers there isn’t a huge amount of hard cash for producers to develop their craft in the same way there is for writers and directors.
If we really want to nurture writers and directors from diverse backgrounds, we have to be nurturing those producers as well, because those are the people with the links to that talent. And it’s so much more authentic for those people to be working together, than for diverse writers and directors to be picked up by a larger production company with no real knowledge or experience of what those writers and directors are wanting to do or say.
Investing in producers, so they can grow and develop their businesses, is so important. That way they can develop talent and also they can then become self-sufficient and support that talent financially as well. Then also, like you’re doing here, the industry needs to put a spotlight on producers as well, to help people understand that what they do is really significant.
Short film is often labelled as a “launchpad” for emerging filmmakers and although we know it’s more than that, the fact it does help talent to launch their careers is undeniable. However, when these young filmmakers start making shorts there’s often this habit of trying to do everything – directing, shooting, producing – theirselves. If you had a chance to speak to them (and I’m sure you often do), what would you tell them about why they should work with a producer? What can a producer do for them to elevate their work?
I always say that good writers and directors should want a producer involved. Quite often, when people are starting out, there’s this belief that it’s “my idea” and I’ve got to protect it. Opening up and letting somebody else invest in that creatively feels really scary, but that is how projects thrive. When you want you want other people to bring stuff to the table that elevates the film and makes it even better.
It’s hard because you have to find the right people to work with. As producers, finding writers and directors that we think we can have a really great working relationship with is just as hard and scary as it is for writers and directors to find producers that are the right match. And undoubtedly, there will be projects where the pairing isn’t quite right. But I think the more you do it, the more you understand about the kind of people that are right for you to work with.
Working with a producer is going to elevate your project creatively. You’re going to have somebody who cares about the film just as much as you do, and is able to bring some kind of objectivity to the narrative and help you develop it. Then also, just from a professionalism point of view, it’s really, really hard for directors to be thinking about the logistics: what time do we have to get out of the location? What’s everybody eating for lunch? Or the power’s gone out, what am I gonna do? If you’ve got a producer, then you don’t need to worry about any of that.
You just get to do the directing and there’s somebody else who’s making sure that everything is how it needs to be. Lots of filmmakers who I’ve worked with on their first proper short film are really shocked about not really having to do anything other than just working on the shot list and the storyboards, because when you do everything yourself, you get used to it. A big part of producing is about making it as streamlined as possible so that the director is really able to flourish and do the best job they can. That should be a real incentive for any new director.
Loran Dunn on the set of Joseph Wallace’s short film Salvation Has No Name
Someone’s work who has definitely been elevated after working with a producer is Joseph Wallace, whose latest short, Salvation Has No Name, has just been featured on S/W. As a huge fan of stop-motion, I’ve followed Joseph’s work for some time and always wanted to feature him on our site, but his work was never quite complex enough. That certainly isn’t the case with Salvation, where his obvious talent has really blossomed and together you’ve made a truly remarkable and unique short film. Can you tell us a little bit about how you became involved with that project and what it was like producing your first animation?
That is actually a really good example of what we’ve just been talking about. Joseph and I knew each other as teenagers, as we were part of the Bristol Old Vic Young Company, and we kept in touch when we went off to university. And, again, this is what I’m talking about with the talent scouting part of producing, as he was somebody that, even from a young age, was really interesting.
The films that he was making while he was at uni were brilliant. I used to run a little short film night up here in Manchester and we used to play his stuff all the time. So I already knew that he was super talented and then we happened to bump into each other at Encounters. He was talking about this film that he really wanted to make, which was Salvation, but that he was feeling really lost with, because he’d never made a professional short film. So I thought this is something that I should really be able to help with.
It was a real baptism of fire getting involved in the animation world. I found out very quickly that this is a really under-supported art form, as there weren’t any dedicated animation funds at the time that we were financing the film, so it was really hard to get the money together. I also massively underestimated just how expensive and how time consuming animation is and honestly, I have the biggest respect for anyone who works in animation because it’s really hardcore.
As Joseph had always done stuff by himself, he overestimated how much he would be able to do and I hadn’t had the experience in animation to know that he wouldn’t be able to do it. Looking back, it should have been obvious because if a live-action director had said to me, “I’m going to shoot, light and direct the film and I’m also going to do the production design”, I would have known that was never going to work. As soon as we got into pre-production we both realised pretty quickly that the team needed to expand quite dramatically in order for us to deliver on the vision of the film. It was so much fun though. It’s just the most amazing and magical process ever.
I can imagine! The short has a really magical quality to it and is being received very well, playing some top tier festivals. That exposure must be great for both you and Joseph, but how do you measure the success of your work?
I think it’s really important, for everybody in this industry, whether you’re a writer, director, producer, editor or cinematographer, you have to decide what success means to you personally. If you have your own clear definition of success, then I think that helps you stay grounded and stops you getting eaten up by everybody else’s expectations and definitions of success.
For me personally, a successful project is one where I’ve had a really great time making it, because that is the reason I got into filmmaking in the first place, I loved doing it. It’s such an amazing pleasure and privilege to have a job where you get to make stuff all the time. So huge success is if it’s been a really enjoyable experience and although Salvation was not without its hugely testing moments, it was ultimately a wonderful time.
“It’s not the measure of the success, but it’s a really lovely bonus”
You ask yourself, “does it deliver on our expectations?” and “does it do what we hoped it would do?” I think it does, because it’s madly ambitious. The budget for that film was around £100,000, which feels like loads of money and if you work in live-action it is, but for other animations that are being made in other parts of Europe you’re looking at five times that. If it does really well at festivals, plays at places that you really respect and wins awards or gets long-listed for a BAFTA, like it was in our case, then for me that’s just the icing on the cake. It’s not the measure of the success, but it’s a really lovely bonus.
The other question to ask is “does it reach an audience?” Do people watch it and does it resonate with them in some way, so that they have felt something and been affected by watching it? That’s the other measure.
Loran Dunn speaking on stage at the world premiere of her debut feature A Deal With The Universe.
Again, it’s something we talk about a lot at S/W, as online success can often be measured by views/likes/comments etc, but that’s only success if that’s what you were after. If you wanted an agent, or funding for another project and you don’t get that from your online release, is it still a success?
Moving on from that question then, you’re someone who’s well embedded in the independent film scene and you know the short film arena very well. So, from your experience, what is currently the biggest challenge in making short films?
The biggest challenge is just the huge escalation in cost for everything, which has made it much harder for short filmmakers. When I started making shorts it was perfectly normal, and acceptable, that you would shoot a short on a weekend and people would just come and help out for free. That’s how I made all my first short films. I was working in production on dramas for the BBC and Sky, so I met loads of people that I could ask for help whenever I would get a project together. People loved doing it, the world was in such a different place financially that giving up your weekend to go and do something fun was much more possible.
Most people are involved in filmmaking because they find it really fun and it’s enjoyable, but at the moment very few people can afford to give up their time for free. Alongside this, the costs around everything, from catering to travel or insurance, has gone up. This squeezes out those early stage filmmakers who might not have the ability to raise the finance required and that’s really tough.
For aspiring producers, what’s the one piece of advice you would give them to help them get a foothold in the industry? What’s the best route to take to get into producing?
I always think that going and getting experience in the production office is invaluable. I did it for a number of years and although ultimately I didn’t love it, I was very good at it, and learnt a huge amount. It took me going through that experience to really know that wasn’t how I imagined my career going. Initially, there’s immediate excitement of getting a job at the BBC, but it was creatively frustrating and it became clear that it wasn’t personally what I wanted to pursue. But, getting that experience in the production office and just understanding how productions work, even if you feel like that’s not what you want to do because you want to be more creatively involved, is still really useful because having a good understanding of the nuts and bolts of production is a massive advantage.
The other route you can take is through development, where you work in-house at a production company and you read lots of scripts and get involved in the development side of things. Personally, I feel like that real world frontline experience of working in the production office is just worth so much more, because that’s the stuff that you have to go and experience to know how it works. Most of us have instincts on story and we can read a book about development, but knowing what a grip does, or whether they really need that pee-wee for the shot, you can’t just instinctively have a talent for that, you have to have been on a few sets to know. Having this experience and knowledge makes you better equipped to know whether a project is achievable or not and also teaches you to make things happen on less money, because you can see how to creatively solve budget problems.
I can’t imagine how difficult it must be to come in and produce a short film, if you’ve only ever been in-house and only had experience at the early development stage. A huge part of producing, when you’re on set, is managing the whole heap of problems that making a film throws up.
“There’s so much value in finding people who are at the same level as you and growing together”
I would also advise you to go to festivals, go and watch stuff. A big part of early career producing is about defining your voice as a producer, as you might be picking up projects, because they come to you and you can do them or they have somebody interesting attached, but you don’t put your own creative voice at the top of that priority list. So going and watching stuff and understanding what stories you want to tell and what are the things that are important to you helps define what you will be known for as a producer. Also, go to the networking drinks and meet your peers.
When you’re starting out in filmmaking you often feel like it’s better if you could get a really big director or a really big writer and then writers think it would be great if they could get this really big production company but I think there’s so much value in finding people who are at the same level as you and growing together. If you’re coming up with people who are in the same place as you, you can really afford to take loads of risks and try stuff out. There’s a huge freedom in that and really amazing relationships can come out of doing that.
Loran Dunn on the set of short film Shagbands with director Luna Carmoon
And you’ve done that with Luna Carmoon, you produced her shorts, Nosebleed and Shagbands and then went on to make the feature Hoard with her. I know a lot of directors get into short films because they want to make that journey from short film to feature filmmaking or television, was that the case for you? Was short film a way of progressing your career and did you always want to get into features?
I always wanted to get into features but I don’t think I ever viewed shorts as just a strategy to get there, because every single short I’ve done, I’ve done it because I really believed in the film and I really loved it. I felt like they all deserved to be made and seen. Short film was never just a byproduct of getting to where I wanted to get to.
Features are never a guarantee, it was always the dream that at some point I’d get to work with all these amazing people, that I’ve worked with over the years on shorts, on something long form. But, I also think I would have been just as content with my short film back catalogue, if it hadn’t happened.
Final question then. From your experiences, what’s the big difference between producing features and shorts?
There’s an absolutely colossal difference and I think none more so than for the producer. You go from trying to get into this supermarket for a couple of hours and making the sandwiches at home so everyone can have something to eat to wading through huge legal documents and dealing with millions of pounds. You’re dealing with sales agents and distributors and you’re thinking about marketing and festival strategies in a much more serious way.
“You have to be the biggest champion of your film”
The stakes are much higher than with short films, but your belief and championing of the story is the same. At every single point in the process, you’re going to encounter people who don’t get what you’re trying to do, or don’t believe in you or the project. If you don’t have that really strong belief and conviction that what you have is something really special, then it will just destroy you and the project. That’s the same with shorts right through into long form, you have to be the biggest champion of your film. You have to have the most enthusiasm of anyone else because you have to bring a whole heap of people along with you for the ride.